First Revision Updates

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  • Last Post 26 February 2016
Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 20 February 2016

OK folks, here are the first round of preliminary changes being made to the editor side of the realm.  These changes are not automatic, and will not be seen until the next content update is ready to push, which will be sometime this weekend.  I wanted to get this out quickly because some racial restrictions have been lifted, so if you want to alter your character, I wanted to give you the chance early on.  Additionally, exp tables have all been adjusted DOWNWARD!  So, you gain a level or two when the update takes place.  Here's the list:

·   Shadow-walkers opened to all races

·   Goblin restriction removed from mage class

·    Ranger opened to all races

·    Barbarian opened to all races, and upgraded to Magical Chainmail (not standard chain, though)

·     Warlock opened to all races

·         The following EXP tables have been instituted, based on today’s top list, and how the realm is starting to stack:

Knight: 190%

Ranger: 180%

Warlock: 170%

Shadow-walker: 150%

Missionary: 150%

Cleric: 150%

Druid: 130%

Mage: 120%

Bard: 110%

Fighter: 110%

Barbarian: 90%

Rogue: 60%

·         With the exception of Fighters, all classes EXP percentages have been LOWERED, with Knights now taking the lead for the highest table. 

 

·         These are just initial stage changes, additional revisions may be required.  We have a long ways to go folks, but we also have a long time to get there! Be patient, and most of all…Have Fun!

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Chuckm posted this 20 February 2016

The changes look really good.  I made a Fighter, Barb, and Shadow-walker.  The Barb felt really good, the figher leveled too fast compared to the other two, and the shadow leveled too slow so the exp ranges seem about right.

 

-Chuck

-Chuck (Anu)

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

I was just looking in more detail and I wanted to make a comment on this Bane,

Cleric vs Missionary

Exp 150% - 150%

Meditate

Chainmail

Combat 4 - 6

2hand Blunt - 1 Hand Sharp

No Stealth - Class Stealth

No crit - Class 3 crit

Spells 3 v 2

 

List of 3 Spells and level that we know off, but as I said before the first 10-20 levels need to be balanced

Iron Faith irfa priest-3 7 6 -10 3500

Remove Curse rcrs priest-3 14 20 -40 8000

 

Why would you chose a cleric over a missionary? What is the roleplaying reason a missionary knows how to criticaly hit something more then say a shadowwalker, is it divine knowledge/blessings?

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

Why do you keep referencing the first 20 levels? You're welcome to choose missionary over cleric, if you don't want godheal, divine healing, and all those other monster healing spells when you get higher levels.  The choice is yours....that's what my realm offers, the ability to Choose!!

 

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

Also, Therg, you seem to be thinking that this realm will eventually become PVP, and that was never my intention.  A PVP realm needs to be balanced across the classes and races so that any character combination has an equal chance of winning a PVP battle as does the next character.  However, in a non-PVP realm, balance of classes is not so important.  If you feel 1 class is lacking in something, then you choose your characters wisely, build a tank, a healer, a caster, a sneaker...etc.  There really is no reason to balance anything in a non-PVP realm when everyone can be whatever they want to be, and create characters that compliment each other in combat vs mobs.  

Vitoc's goal with the WebMud project was to appeal to a larger audience than just the current dwindling population of majormudders.  How do you think a new person, just learning how to play a text-based game would feel when they get to the starting village, armour up, get a weapon, head to the arena, excited to get some experience, and all they see on their screen is "Thergin critically slices you for 50 damage! You have been killed!"  That would really do a lot to keep their interest peaked!

They need a realm to learn to play the game first, then they can move on to a potential PVP realm, if they so choose.  And yes, as I said earlier, I agree that a PVP realm absolutely must be balanced, but that is not my goal with my realm.

 

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

I referenced the first 20 levels because it is the most important experience for new players, and for old players racing the to get ahead on fresh realms.

Why dont you understand why I am referencing the first 20 levels when thats the content you are providing, do you think it is unimportant?, I find this hard to believe from a player such as yourself. You are the person creating the content. You are making decisions on balance and power for classes, why dont you ask these questions?

I dont get to choose to have more lower level cleric-3 spells you do!

 

Note on Barbarian, as you can see Force is the number one in the realm, this is with a heal bot since Barbarians lack natural defense Magical Chain I guess will help, Forces Barbarian is just about Naked, the heal bot issue is due to the damage output being so high compared with other classes.

Combat 1-5 in majormud is exponential by design going far beyond 5 unless you have had the formula adjusted will lead to barbarians being able to hit much higher level mobs then they should.

You have the old Mystic Priest, Fighter Priest balance issue.

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

As far as I was told, the combat levels here are majormud +2, so combat 5 in majormud = combat 7 here, and yes, I agree, i'm thinking barbarian is going to get a combat nerf. And this is after you and force argued that barbarian was useless with leather armor.  This goes along with what i said earlier....build your supporting characters to fill the weaknesses of your other characters.

I was told by Force earlier that he managed to kill the Ancient Green Dragon already, just because mobs don't chase or regen hp's yet, so he's pretty much just wreaking havoc on everything.  I guess if there's a weakness somewhere, it will be quick to be exploited!

 

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

Balance should be from the base class solo, then you look at supporting class, do the support classes have to much healing, mana regen, sustain how does that nerf effect solo, do the damage classes have to much damage.

Barbarians solo need to have huge damage to make up for the low mitigation with leather, but as u can see this leads to an issue. If they have less damage, and a little more mitigation then that will help balance heal bots.

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

it's very difficult to balance a character as a solo, then attempt to balance as a supporting member.  Example, clerics absolutely need huge heals to make up for their lack of combat, but when coupled with a barbarian, clerics quickly become OP.  Then, you nerf the barbarian because the cleric is making them too strong, then the barb becomes useless as a solo class.  Fine lines drawn no matter how you look at it. Barbarians do get a good amount of hp rgen in their quest weapon, as well as hp regen built onto the magic items, so they can balance themselves through gear selection, but then when coupled with healer.....and the problems are never ending!

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

I completly disagree with your approx to balance, Giving barbs more regen is a great idea, I would love to see some rage mechanic, I would love to see them swinging fast but doing less damage as they are in a reckless rage, maybe a -min -max damage on class. Reducing the damage output and increasing the mitigation balances the healbot problem, and you will get to that the long way round.

Below is an example of how I would do testing for classes, but as I said out of the box your base game is so far out of wack its hard to add band aid solutions as with the rgen items, naked on a corpse run and with base gear someone starting out does not get these benifits. I think it doesnt fix the fundermental issue, and maybe the Barb concept should have been left for an expansion, when the engine can cater for some uniqueness such as getting increased regen the lower your hps are.

 

Example- Create a benchmark base, Exp tables both 100% 

Combat 5 vs 3

Leather vs Chain

Make an area for testing, put dummies that attack back, mobs with high hps whatever you want to call it, have them level 5-10-15 etc.

Create a character for solo, give them huge mana and hps so they can fight an extended amount of time.

You record the solo potential by testing every 5 levels vs the said dummies,

Record the scaling, and damage

This is an apox benchmark as ppl will choose different classes races etc but we not trying to micro the balance we are getting it as close as we can for the amount of time spent.

If said barbarian is 50% more damage but 20% less mitigation then a Cleric, then tweek as needed, this can be done many ways.

Will a Barbarian Cleric combo be powerful, yes most likly it will be better then either solo, but thats great because it incourages grouping, and grouping has its downsides when one character dies, or hangs, you need to usually goto a higher level area to maximize the combo. But if that power is 200% more then solo then we have a problem, but if its only 20% or 50% more then its within acceptable margins, as other combos will be found like larger groups with a bard/mage etc.

Making each class more self sustainable and balanced solo is the key to then moving towards balance with support. 

Therg

 

 

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

When I first asked a couple of folks to help me play test the realm, I had the starting villages and the outlying forest area.  I received spreadsheets of information back with class/race combo, weapon, armour, scripting locations, and exp rates.  These rates ranged from 3K-8K/hr at level 1, across all classes, and from 12-27K per hour at level 3.  Regardless of how balanced the realm is, you have to expect there will be a large variance from mage to warrior classes at these low levels, so there is nothing in these numbers that stands out as being way out of whack.

That being said, I will admit there are vast differences in the character classes currently used in the realm.  However, you still haven't addressed my initial question, why does balance really matter in a non-pvp realm? If you feel 1 class or race is overpowered, then select it, and use it to help level a lesser class that you're interested in running.  Knowing that most players are running "parties" of their own characters, it's up to them to build their party wisely, with a damage dealer, a roomer, a healer, a sneaker, etc.  Balance across classes is important in a pvp realm, but in a non-pvp, co-op realm, balanced classes result in cookie cutter situations.  If I'm going to be doing 80-100 damage per round at level XX no matter what class I choose, then why does it matter what I choose? I might as well go with a healer so I will rest less, and earn more exp. A level 20 warrior should be way out-damaging a level 20 mage in single mob combat, because a mage can earn more exp/hr by rooming, with the proper setup. A level 20 barbarian should vastly out-damage a level 20 cleric, but will be forced to rest more often, thereby allowing the cleric to close the gap in exp/hr. Classes that become very powerful at higher levels (mages/clerics) should suffer the penalties of being almost unplayable as a solo class at low levels.  And once again, I'll remind you that this realm was never thought of as being a future PVP realm.  I know there are people out there who will only come if PVP is available, and it will be, but the development, the AI, the content, etc, are just not ready to support PVP at this time, and by the time it will, myself and (hopefully) others will be ready to build a PVP-based realm.

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

Also, let me say that I appreciate you finally calming down and providing some thoughtful insights that we can discuss as adults, rather than constantly taking shots at each other. If you have no intention of ever creating content on your own, then you will still be a vast knowledge base to pull from when I do start to develop my next "PVP" realm.

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

I think it does matter, that difference is two great, if I want to play a mage and script using spells I am going to get hammered, you are saying I am forced to room at a higher level because you don want to adjust the low level spells for balance? Why have a top 100 if you are happy having such imbalnced classes. Everyone wants to feel that the class they want to roleplay is going to be powerful.

 

I love grouping, but I dont like running more then 1 character, I play with friends, but im not going to play an underpowered class, reducing thief to 60% exp table is a band aid solution it does not address the problem at hand.

If Vitoc allows, I would build a pvp realm, but my understand is he hates PVP, so lets see if we get one.

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

"I want to play a mage and script using spells I am going to get hammered"

- At low levels, yes!  I don't think there are any examples out there, either in RPGs or literary novels, where low level apprentice mages were all-powerful. If you want to become powerful at higher levels, you must pay your dues in the beginning.

"you are saying I am forced to room at a higher level because you don want to adjust the low level spells for balance? "

- I don't understand the correlation here. I don't see it as being "forced" to room so much as being "able" to room.  When you gain the ability to room, why would you not, as long as it is mana efficient and increases your exp/hr rate? And again, mages should NOT be balanced with other classes such as fighters, rangers, etc. at low levels. A fighter-class should be able to run circles around mages at low levels, out-damaging, out-distancing, out-exp'ing.  Around mid-levels, say 30-40, it starts to even out where a mage can earn roughly the same exp/hr as a fighter, and finally, at high levels, 50+, a mage is ruling the fighter.  An example would be the Non-PVP realm in GMud.  I know there is a mage/priest combo running the gremlins there making nearly 9M / hour last time I asked him.  Maybe more now, but there is no way a fighter class is going to make 9M anywhere!!  You're talking about balance from the very beginning, and I'm talking about balance over the life of the character. Someone who sticks it out, suffers the pains of trying to build a mage, should be rewarded at higher levels, rather then being the same as everyone else.  Again, I bring up the point, if all classes are balanced at all levels, then where is the variety, where is the need to be anything other than <fill in the blank>?

"reducing thief to 60% exp table is a band aid solution it does not address the problem at hand."

- The problem with rogues right now, is there is no need to have one.  When traps are implemented, and locked doors, and things in the game that only a rogue can do, then there will be a greater notice paid to them.  Right now, they are nothing but a cheap fighter class with leather armour and insignificant attacks. Not much I can do with them until their primary skills are incorporated into the game.

 

 

 

 

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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Thergin posted this 24 February 2016

Not much you can do....

How many books have apprentice fighters that are all powerful?

Want me to list some games where mages/wizards have power from level 1, and one might say more so then a warrior/barbarian since they are ranged, have CC, and warriors usually dont have a kit yet to not get kited.

World of Warcraft 

Diablo 3 

Dragon Age

Divinity Original Sin

list can go on.

You want someone to dedicate 2 months to a mage just to break even at level 30-40? When the fighters would be now 60? I have no problem with mages being more bursty, and great against bosses, good party buffs, but when it comes to scripting the differences are far to great to say hey you need to suck for 30 levels until u get some decent spells and mana regen, and enough hps not to be rounded.

 

Jumpin' Jack Flash posted this 24 February 2016

I guess I could give mages plate armor, and increase their hp's to 6-12 per level, and allow them to use 2H weapons so they can be viable at level 1.

MamaBear ran a mage in the test realm, from level 1, without sys commands, and having never run a mage before.  I think her comment was something like, "It was very difficult to get going, but well worth the effort once I got powerful!"  I think she was level 15 when she became "powerful", so if a total newb can run a mage and stick it out, I would say the class is ok as is. 

I don't know if you're talking about making them more powerful at the start, with a slower scaling of power accumulating across a broader span of levels, but that would require a complete revamping of the majormud style spells, which everyone seems to love under the spellmod scheme. Additionally, I just don't hear any other complaints from the realm regarding mages needing to be buffed, other than fixing the mmis spell, which has already been done.

 

Jumpin’ Jack Flash

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VitocsBetterHalf posted this 24 February 2016

I just wanted to confirm, I'm still having fun with my mage!  I started one on the production realm and it's still my favorite character to play.  But different strokes for different folks.  Some will want a character that has a more steady pace throughout, and some will want one that starts out easier but doesn't have as much of a jump later on.  This is the beauty of how Bane has created his realm.  There are a bunch of different combinations to choose from to get exactly what you like!  

What it all comes down to is that it's Bane's realm!  You can make suggestions till your blue in the face Therg (and sometimes I imagine it does turn blue), but in the end he makes all the decisions for his content.  You are the only one of two people who have complained (and done so in a classless way for the most part I might add).  You clearly have major problems with the way he's designed and balanced things.  So if you don't like it, why are you still playing it?  Didn't your mother ever tell you if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?  Well if she didn't, this mama is telling you right now!  I can understand constructive criticism (preferably in a private manor), but you just can't seem to stop spewing your negativity towards all his hard work.  What do you get out of that exactly?  Seems pretty pointless to me!  Therg, I'm asking you kindly to just keep your negative comments to yourself.  Bane has already given you enough of the limited time he has to work on this game.  I ask that you please don't take anymore of it, and if you're so unhappy with this realm, don't play in it, simple solution.  

Thergin posted this 26 February 2016

Thank you BetterHalf, I have taken your words to heart. I will stop the negative feedback, you are right about how frustrating it is to watch something you care so much about take a direction you dont believe is close to where it should go.

I am glad you are enjoying your experience, and I have no doubt Bane is doing a massive amount of work just as Force did.... and many of us have in the past. 

I would really love your feedback, just as I would love Bane's feedback on my new proposed realm ideas, and as you said it was better for me to focus my frustration in a productive way.

Therg

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